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These journals/discussions facilitate deep processing of learning and differentiation of instruction by encouraging critical thinking and independent exploration. They also provide an additional forum for me to give feedback to guide your individual learning.
Psychology
Rubrics
- 15 Points - Response made to the reading and two replies were submitted on two different days relevant to instructional unit
- 10 Points - Response and one reply made to the discussion or two replies were submitted on two different days relevant to reading
- 5 Points - One post was submitted relevant to reading
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As you read the postings of your classmates, consider how you might add to the discussion. You could ask probing questions, offer examples, share a different perspective, seek clarification, add your own insights based on your experiences from outside this course, etc. Avoid brief comments like, "I agree with Helen." Your goal is to add to the discussion so that further understanding develops. I expect from each participant at least two postings in response to other student answers (this is in addition to posting your answer to the DQs).
54 comments:
Psychology is not the only thing women have been cut short on in terms of money as everyone knows. Other fields such as business and education lack the money women should deserve for doing the same job as a man would. What I think is particularly sad is that, although this day and age, everyone is entitled to "rights" and "freedom" and are treated with "equality", yet some things never change. Why is it that men have an $8,000 median over women? Why are men more selected to have thesises printed in renowned medical journals, even when the case might be that a woman is more educated on the same exact topic? In my opinion it's due to human nature, that nature being that human beings do not like change. For decades women were held below men with education, and salaries. Then, all of the sudden, civil rights comes along, stating that men and women should be held at the same level, but everyone else's mindset is "Well we've done this this and that for so long, and it's worked, why should we change?". It's a sad mindset to have and hopefully it changes soon to a point where people are paid based on their intelligence, not their gender.
The founders of phsycology are predominantly male however the contributions of women in this field is invaluable as well as indeniable. Work from self made women such as that of Christine Ladd-Franklins who were denied their degrees until forty years after their requirments were fufilled exemplifies how women worked not for fame and recognatino but purely for the benefit the scientific community would recieve through their often neglected work. Their work contributed to the fundemetal elements of physcology. I believe that the oppression of women in the field of phsycology greatly harmed the pottential research that could have been gained. Many women could have worked harder and their findings could have been more conclusive if enough funding and suppourt were provided. Instead they had to fight just to be recognized as phsycologists. There was also the huge loss of potential phsycologists who turned away from that science because of the prejudice and hurdles they faced because of their sex. Many possible bonuese have been lost because of prejudiced history however in the modern day the world has become much more equal in terms of gender.
@ ausitn I agree that women have faced many problems in the past because of their sex and that in the modern day they still do face these problems but on a much smaller scale. The world today is much more equal in terms of gender relations than it was a hundred years ago. In fact there are femal dominated fields today and many collages have quotas requiring a certain number of students be women. Clearly there is patterns of rapid improvement and although there may not be complete gender equality the world is reaching that goal. In
I was actually very surprised having learned that women were discriminated that much in the field of psychology, after reading that article. Not to say I was totally oblivious that women were every discriminated, I just didn't realize how severe it was. What really surprised me was that it was in the field of psychology nonetheless where they try to figure out how everybody thinks, not just men. I would have thought that women's opinions would actually be valued more because they have a different thought process than men and could help them understand much more than they already had. I understand how men think that there are certain rights and entitlements that they deserve, but come on. Thats the beginning of the 20th century we are talking about, not the days of Greece and Sparta where only men could fight and take part in the government. In Psychology especially, I think everybody's view or thoughts deserves the same amount of respect and importance. It shouldn't matter what race, gender, or age someone is. That is what makes people unique and that is what helps us to understand more about the people we live and work with every day.
I couldn't agree more with Brian, psychology is meant to be studied on people as a whole, not one gender. Also that thing that surprised me most about this whole mess is that when civil rights did finally come around, it was only small increases in pay, jobs, etc. Not to contradict Walid, but I think that women should have had equal rights MEAN equal rights, not increase over a long period of time, although I do agree with Walid, we are better off now than we were a hundred years ago.
Thank you Austin, I also want to acknowledge how clear you made the issues regarding women in psychology and just in general of the past and today. I thought what you said was very well put. I also agree with Walid about how the world has become a much more equal place to live in than even just a few decades ago. Women weren't even allowed to vote, now there are many working in our government and taking on very important roles that men could not do without. But as we continue to make the world a better and more fair place to live for all races and genders, we should be careful not to overcompensate and fall back into the ways of the past. I think we should learn from the wrongs of the past and not try to justify the injustices done to women and others in the past and give them special rights and benefits. I think that is immature, not because I am a man, but because our society will keep playing these games about "getting even" with each other and it will never stop.
I agree that America has made great strides since the past, however, I think that the author’s approach to the argument is strange. The author introduces the idea of inequality as though it was absolutely unjustified. Considering the time in which these events took place such behavior was normal. Before the "breakthroughs" of the civil rights movement, women had a difficult time in gaining positions in many professions, let alone psychology.
If you ask me, this is something that addresses more than just the field of psychology - it’s about taking the time to listen to what everyone has to offer. Although women were thought to be “less fit” in these fields at the time, they have contributed a lot to the study of psychology. Ultimately, it is because of the influence of both males and females that psychology is what it is today.
I don't find anything too surprising from this article. Women are missing in many fields, why should psychology be any different. In my opinion, in order to have a more equal world women must believe that they live in one. Perhaps knowing the challenges involved in being published or employed in the world of psychology is deterring women from pushing themselves in the field. Women must be confident in their work. The times have changed and women do not need to rely on men to give them fame, fortune, respect, or success. If gender discrimination does exist, take the offender to court. Sitting around and waiting for oppurtunities is pointless. Change happens now, and, thankfully, it is happening.
I agree with Walid. Women have had to fight just to be recognized as psychologists. Now that this has happened, it is now possible for them to move up to the next level and contribute substantially to this field.
"our society will keep playing these games about "getting even" with each other and it will never stop." -Brian
I couldn't agree more. It's like society wants to overcompensate for differences in people. To say the least everyone is different, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I think that some people today fall back too easily to the idea of "equality" without realizing the differences in attitude, competence, or ability.
I'd also like to note the argument they used for the incomes. "The most recent available statistics indicate that the median annual salary for male psychologists is $58,900 while that for female psychologists is $50,300." Exactly why did they use median? They could have very well used an average instead. It feels as though some of the info is skewed for impact. They claim that female and male psychologists experience "considerably different" treatment, however maybe they aren't as different as they seem in the article.
Though the contributions of women in the field of psychology seems to be sparse and oppressed, it is impressive, nonetheless that they were able to make the advances that they did at a time where women were belittled in many fields. The women that did have a passion for psychology set the first foundations for other motivated women to follow in their footsteps and work even harder for gender equality in this field. The question is, is this really a feminist issue that needs to be harped on? Its obvious that men not only contributed to the field of psychology itself but helped women (admittedly there was no heartfelt outpouring of such support by men in general) take the steps necessary for women to be as prevalent as they are in the field of psychology today.
Psychology and any field of scientific inquiry, has always benefited the most from the input of a multitude of diverse people all trying new ideas and plans to delve into the unknown depths of the human mind. Yet, the early field of psychology removed half of the possible minds that could have brought new insight and a completely new outlook into the human mind by the disenfranchising of women in psychology. Everyone would agree that men and women have very different thought processes that each side has great difficulty understanding. Would not the early field of psychology have benefited greatly from the input of women who could explain better than any man what the inner workings of the mind of half the population looked like? Yet, the early days of psychology were characterized by the turning away of countless women who could have been of great benefit. We cannot, however, over look the pioneers mentioned in this article such as Mary Calkins, Christine Ladd-Franklin and Marget Washburn who against all odds preserved in a profession that gave them no respect and belittled their contributions and efforts. Just think of the more advanced state that psychology could be in if the early leaders had opened the doors to women and doubled the possible applicant pool. If this had happened it is very likely that the foundation of psychology as a whole would be many times stronger. Thankfully this trend seems to be coming to an end as the number of Ph.D.'s granted are now being given in even numbers to both genders and the contributions of all are being recognized not just a specific part.
Sam makes an excellent point that excluding women from the field of psychology Did limit it severely. How are men to know the innermost thoughts of such an elusive and at times very separate culture of women? Half of all human interactions do occur with women and to simply try and label them without their personal contributions takes us back as far as the cult of domesticity (yes...I did make an apush reference...). However, I think its possible that the evolution of how we interpret psychology, despite all idyllic progressive notions, would not have come to the stage that it is now if women had not gone through the struggles that they did to achieve equality in this field.
It is no surprise that women struggled to enter into psychology at the start of its field. From the beginning of time, women and their work have been ignored in various subjects. I believe the barrier that females faced greatly affected the beginning of psychology. The science may have advanced at a much quicker pace if females had been allowed to participate from the start. It is interesting to imagine how much more we would know now if women had been allowed to do research then.
However, it is inspirational that women such as Christine Ladd-Franklin, Whiton Calkins, and Mararet Floy Washburn were able to impact the field early on despite the countless obstacles they faced. It is even more moving that women now make up half of the psychologists in the world. The sad part of course is that women are still not equal in the world of psychology. The salaries of women psychologists are significantly smaller than those of men. This fact came as a surprise to me. I was sure in modern times, gender prejudice would be almost completely absent in the world. But, as evidence by pay roll, it is clear that women are still discriminated against when it comes to careers. I was glad to see that an article was addressing this issue, but more people and articles should question inequality in the field of psychology. We do not want to further detriment the research of psychology.
I disagree with Alisha. The article did not say that women were missing in the field of psychology today. In fact, the article said that over half of the people getting Ph.D.'s in psychology are women. What the article said is that although this may be true, men and women are not getting the same benefits in the field. For example, salary. The starting salary of women is about 8,000 dollars less than that of a man's. Therefore, I believe that the author's point is that today the real problem is not the lack of women in the psychology field, but simply the difference in the way they are treated compared to men.
I agree with Brian that it is very surprising that the field of psychology of all the fields of science would exclude the opinions of women due to the strong limit of understanding that it causes in a field that wishes to understand every human mind. Psychology seems like the field that would have been the first to embrace the completely different outlook women could provide into the minds of people. Thankfully this trend has been changed as can be seen from the fact that women are earning more than half of the Ph.D.'s in psychology now.
I agree with walid that women could have defiantly made huge contributions to the field of psychology if they had been allowed to and that psychology suffered for many years until the contributions of women were finally encouraged. By doubling the possibly minds that could enter the field of psychology the depth and understanding of psychology has greatly increased the understanding of the mind and the possibilities of research have greatly increased.
It's a shame that women were discriminated in the field of psychology, along with many other fields. Society thinks that men are supposed to create new ideas and discover new things, but women are just as capable at doing that as men are. Men and women are very much alike, but we have a few differences and that is what people are concentrated on and that is why women are treated unequally. We have to look at women as a whole and not concentrate on the little things.
I somewhat agree with what Alex said. We would probably know a lot more if women were not discriminated in psychology and psychology would advance much quicker. I agree that women should be paid equally as men, but money doesn't determine how good of a psychologist you are. I would assume that some women get paid less than men, but know a lot more. Salary is just another factor of discrimination in which we need to get rid of.
I was definately very suprised as well on how even in the 1900's women weren't treated equally.More importantly, by the statistic for these days, it hasn't changed. I honestly applaud those women for going and studying at ivy league colleges and not getting a degree. It must've been extremely hard; but its women like that who have helped us reach where we are today. These women also contributed a lot, it isn't as if they studied and didn't put it to use. I congratulate these ladies and wish more people with strength of heart and determination come down.
One major question I have is: Why berate men for the oppression of women in psychology or in general for that matter? Yes, its easy to say all the politically correct things about equality.
First of all, which steps have you made to change this dynamic in any way? Easy. By taking this class right now instead of taking a free period you're taking advantage of the oppertunities and advancements made possible by our fore(mothers?).
Men are substantially different from women in many aspects. Anyone who knows even the most primitive biology can find that. Would that not factor in to the mental aspects of both cultures? Why are we striving so ardently to change this? Easy. Basic human morality desires to feel noble.
Women develop physically and mentally earlier than men. Is it possible that historically as we grow as a culture that its the polar opposite?
Separate but equal but different? Hardly.
Most right-headed women know how to get what they want. Since the beginning of time the more savvy and driven women have found a way to (in some way or form) attain that which they found themselves wanting.
Is it ( for the most part as a culture) that they secretly desire to be in this position?
Why was there not a greater uprising against for this if it was such a pressing issue? Were they simply ignorant? Or were they happy? In hindsight can we possibly know the Real emotional and societal issues plaguing the women of the past?
How is it fair to women if they have to fight for every recongiztion, what is it that men can do that women can not? for years women have been degraded not being compared as an equal to a man when i believe some women can even do it better. women have always been looked at as being the stay home mom, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the children, obeying her every husbands whim. But the minute we decided that the home is not where our place should be and choose to then instead be in an office our a laboratory men become inferior. There are some women who will fight for every respect that they deserve and why should we when it should be givin freely. Some qualitites that women obtain could be more helping to many flelds of business, psychology, marketing etc. if only the world would notice it and to think that there are women still to this day who deal with prejudice's against them because of there sex. When will women be justifed as having ever bit of talent that a man has.
I agree with austin, will the rights of women ever change? If men and women are in the same oiffce doing the same kind of work, nothing different why should we be payed less for doing the same thing. The human race has been taught since the beginning of our time that men have a higher power it is human nature. It is not right but is society doing anything to change that idea. No, Women have every opportunity and every right to have an education more then a man does. And austin is right one women could have more intellect then a room full of businessmen, Is it correct to say that men are intimated by a woman who has a collge degree and might possibly know more then he does? Society has taught us that men are first when all in all that is not true, Would men be better off without the help of women, No and it all comes down to the same thing equality. We are all equals in this wolrd and should be treated as so no less no more.
It sad that everone hasn't always recieved the same oppourtunities. This article starts out with the question “If there were women pioneers, why were their names and accomplishments absent from historical accounts?” Well the fact is there are historical accounts. How else would this author know that they contributed papers and joined the national professional association as soon as it was formed? The fact is that the reason women aren’t famously known for their endeavors is because of the obstacles society put in front of them like not allowing them to obtain degrees. Because they weren’t educated in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, it was hard for women to contribute significantly to this field . Some women were able to overcome this obstacle, but very few. In the book American Men in Science(published in 1906), out of the so called “1000 most distinguished scientists”, only 3 of them were women. This is unfortunate, as many others have already stated, because women could have contributed so much, but only if they had the same opportunities. In 1991, however, the article states that women are starting to get the same opportunities. They received 50 percent of PhDs in 1991. It is obvious now that women were able to contribute a lot to psychology. It is upsetting that women haven’t been always given the same opportunities because we could have advanced more rapidly with their input. We have to learn from this past and give the same opportunities to everyone.
I totally agree with Jen's comment about the article using a skewed perspective of reality that this article uses through the use of the median. A median can’t always give accurate results as those of you in statistics know. The article should also present the average, minimum, and maximum salaries between men and women so we can get an exact representation. The differences between men and women seem to be inflated by using that statistic.
Also, another concern I have which came to my mind when reading this article is the concept of being politically correct. While I agree that women and men should get same opportunities, I also believe that society should be careful of being too politically correct. The highest salary and best jobs should go to those that deserve it, whether it be men or women, white or black. I think that corporations today are too concerned with being politically correct that they purposely hire minorities that may not be fully qualified for a job just so they can say they are "equal oppourtunity". An example in my economics book said that Ford fired many male experienced workers in order to hire more women. This led to a sharp decrease in quality just so Ford could say they were hiring the same amount of women as men. This doesn't make me a sexist or a racist. I simply believe the same oppourtunities should be available and those most qualified should be the ones that get the jobs.
Viewing woman as inferior to men is unacceptable in anything. Woman have the potential to do well if not better at things than men. By doing this, the discoveries and findings of these women could have been used in the development of more advanced findings, but rather they were chosed to be elected due to an unreasonable reason. The interest of future women in the field of psychology could have turned them away from it for a simple and unnecessary reason not allowing the field to develop even more.
I think Erick is backing up my point with his example of Ford and society becoming too politically correct. I'm all for people of different gender and race given the same chance to succeed as any other American. In a way, I also think the government and society are holding people back from being the same. For example, colleges award more or better scholarships to people based on their ethnicity. How does that make people's chances more fair and equal for getting into college? It's like they're punishing those people who don't fit their ethnic criteria. It's time to just treat one another as American's rather than people of a different race. I understand that their are differences between cultures, but that shouldn't influence the big picture.
"The highest salary and best jobs should go to those that deserve it, whether it be men or women, white or black. " -Erick
I most definitely agree. Although at first the numbers mentioned in the article (58K to 50K) seems to be "unjust", if you think about it, that is only the median pay. While there are many male psychologists who make more money than their female counterparts, there are also many female psychologists who make more than male psychologists.
There is nothing really too surprising about this article. It just points some of the many instances in which women have been discriminated against. In my opinion this article does not do a lot for the fight for equality. If you were not out there protesting for equal wages already, this probably would not sway you to. Just like the war in Iraq. Once most people hear enough news about it, it doesn’t ruin their days unless it affects them directly. However, even though this article seems kind of pointless in that aspect, it is important that journalists are constantly keeping people aware of the issue. While most people look at this article and dismiss it right away, it still has the ability to make an enormous impression on some individuals.
I agree with brandon's statements completely. Judging someone by their gender is just as ignorant as judging someone by their skin color. There is no reason why women should be viewed as less valuable than men. There is no telling how advanced this world would be if people stopped judging each other by gender.
I agree with Jen and Eric. When it comes to getting a job, your gender should not play a role. Instead a person should receive a job because of their qualifications. I also agree that although the article makes it sound as if all women psychologists are given lower salaries than men simply because of their gender, this may not always be the case. There are also most likely women psychologists who receive a higher pay than male psychologists. Also, some women's pay may be lower simply because their work does not deserve a higher salary. The article seems to blame only discrimination as the cause for salary differences in psychology, however other factors may be coming into play.
@Sam
I agree with what you said about the field of physcology depends on the diverse views of people. Limiting the pottential to just men ultimetly harmed physcology to a astonishing degree. The field however is now more stable in the aspect of gender equality and the different perspectives brought forth from different people greatly increases the progress in that field.
I agree with matt completely in the fact that this article will most likely be neglected due to the fact most of it has been resolved already. People who are not directly affected by this situation will be more tempted to not care and just simply ignore it because it is not a surprise that this has happened. These are the types of point of views that will create a never-ending, but minimal discrimination. This article may be a little misleading in the fact that it contains a biased point of view, but nevertheless it is something that should never occur in any society and should not be condoned.
Despite the obstacles women have faced trying to enter into psychology, we persist on being recognized. People may believe that sexism is a term of the past, but being short-handed 8,000 is quite ridiculous, especially when grants and opportunities are added into the equation. In such a biased field I think it should seem blatantly obvious that these ladies are entering to benefit the scientific community. Sexism in general has improved and, yes, women are beginning to receive the kudos that are rightfully theirs, but why can’t society accept women as equal counterparts to men? I hope that society will continue to accept women’s position as leaders and contributors instead of missing out on countless opportunities.
agree with Delfinia. Why is that when women go outside their stereo typical mother/maid role they have to try harder to be recognized amongst men who are of the same or less intelligence of them? If psychology and other fields are going to be labeled as a “man’s job” then why is it when men enter a women’s area of work they aren’t greeted with as many drawbacks as women receive. My mother is a teacher, and I think teaching would be considered as a “women’s job”. She made a good point as well, about how men typically skip classroom teaching, then hands-on job, and skip straight to the head haunch position of principle, administrator or supervisor.
Women have always been left out of history and most professions because the male gender usually runs them. Men have always been afraid of women and do not want to give them any credit. That is why they have been left out of the history of psychology. The role of women in any field, not just psychology, have been cut out of history and it is finally just coming to light that women have had a huge impact on psychology. It is sad but even today women still are behind men and maybe one day the wall between the genders will be torn down.
I agree with Austin and Walid that women have faced problems in the past and present. Women have fought hard to get where they are today and it is still not completely fair. What could have been done if women weren't held back in the past? All the problems that may have been fixed if women hadn't have to fight to get the same recognition that their male counter parts get. In the future maybe the two genders, male and females, will work along side in Psychology and help better the world.
This article shows just how stuck up people can be. In the 1800's and before women were treated like crap because thats the way it was and most just accepted it. but these days fewer women will. however, it still has not helped us achieve equality with men in the workplace and it probably won't help us in our lifetime, but sooner or later somethings gotta give.
i agree with mike. but i wouldn't say men are scared of women, they don't run from us when we approach them, for the most part. i would just say that some men are intimidated by women and that they may think that if they treat women inferior they will become inferior.
i agree with brandon when he says that treating women inferior is wrong and also when he says that women can do things as good if not better than men. there are many women that are more successful than men in psychology as well as other fields such as law and health care. in fact some women are better at sports than some men. which proves that one gender really isn't better than the other.
Mike said "What could have been done if women weren't held back in the past?". I absolutely agree. It's a shame that women had to overcome so much. As Brian said very early on, " I would have thought that women's opinions would actually be valued more because they have a different thought process than men and could help them understand much more than they already had." It's true that if their opinions had always been valued, there would have been so much more added to the field of psychology if their input had always been respected.
Wow, me being someone who wants to have a employment future in psychology. It was very shocking to find out that women are treated and paid different no matter what their degree may be. I think it is wrong that someone should look at the sex of a person to determine whether or not they are able enough to pursue great things in psychology or any other field of employment.
I agree with Brian. It is true that you would think in psychology that women would be more appreciated then denied because in order to study human behavior you have to look at men, children, women, etc...You cant just look at one or the other.
I agree with lexi;when she says that sexism is not a thing in the past whether its not allowing us to have the degree we want or not giving women the same amount of money as a man with the same amount of experience.Either way sexism still exists in this our world today and it is still wrong, no matter what the degree of severity is.
Regardless of anything that has gone on that has the limited the discrimination against women whether it's recently or right now, there will always be some people that will be discriminatory to women for the sole reason of the background behind it all. These people will never change just because they are totally sold on the fact that it is just how it should be. This is the reason why any sort of discrimination will never end, let alone the poor women that suffer now and back then. I did not realize how severe the whole situation with psychologists would be because if someone can help develop the future, why would anyone want to try and stop them?
In the early 1900’s women were discriminated against in every aspect of life. It takes persistence to strive to become accepted in a certain area. Because of Mary Whiton Calkins, Margaret Floy Washburn and Christine Ladd-Franklin, the start of women becoming influential in the psychology world began. Even being named one of the brightest students by William James, Calkins was denied a doctorate from Harvard. Once the men of psychology realized women were just as capable of studying the mind, women made their mark in psychology history. Even today there are still differences between men and women but society is changing for the better and offering equality for all.
I agree with Alisha. It is not a surprise that women faced difficulties when studying psychology because all women face independence challenges during the twentieth century. Many times women are discouraged because of the restrictions men put on them but they must strive to succeed in order to pave the way for the next generation.
@ Mike. Saying that men have always been afraid of women may be true for some cases, but not all of them. Many people devalue others in order to make themselves feel superior. A prime example of this is the nazis. It is not always the case that they are afraid. Sometimes people just do incredibly stupid things in order to feel superior to others.
I agree with Ashley on how women were treated in the past, and still in the present today. Women, in the past had no rights and did everything that the men told them to do. They were pretty much treated like slaves. Now a days, some people still treat women horribly, but in a different way. For example, they will not hire women on the sole reason that they are women. With the rights that women have today, they will revolt when they get sick and tired of this discrimination against sex.
Maybe it's becasue I am one of the last posters and feel obliged to not regurgitate the same response, but this article was thoroughly unnecessary and unsurprising. Thankfullly, I have seen many after school specials and have a rudimentry knowledge of history and know that discrimination is part of man's past and present, I don't need a paper to tell me that, and truly, I would expect nothing less from phychology than the same discrimination I am aware of in other fields. However, it's not even fair to say that this article addresses "today" as most of its statistics come from 1991, George Michael is no longer popular, and 90210 has gone off the air, however this article is not anymore eye-opening now than it was then, it might be an unfortunate truth that discrimination was and still is, but that does not make it special.
I agree with Jen Chen, too often people look at statistics too explicitly, forgetting that they say nothing absolutely, but rather are open for interpretation. Thus, the fact that these values are medians is very important. Also, women might be attracted to fields of phychology that generally pay less, etc., there are too many factors, and these statistics are too vague to say much of anything conclusively, though they do indicate some form of discrimination.
I agree with Alisha Nanda, I'd hate to just repeat what you said, but I find myself having nothing constructive to add to your post, the sooner we can act like we live in a world void of discrimination, the sooner we can act without inhabition and can become free to accomplish whatever we desire.
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